Why everyone's not a torturer

- interesting article on phycology of torture

Published on May 10, 2004 By Solitair In Current Events

I read an interesting article today on torture and felt I should share it with those who may not see it.

Link

In the article, the physologists argue that two things are required for torture to occur.

- Firstly an individual. Not necessarily any individual but many individuals, including well-adjusted individuals would do.
- Secondly either bad or lacking leadership.

Very interesting article.

Paul.

Comments

kingbee

on May 10, 2004

actually you need three components at very least. some people. some inept supervisors. some victims. (sorry i couldnt help myself)

it is a good article. thanks for providing the link

dharmagrl

on May 10, 2004

Thanks for the link, I'm emailing this to my husband (he's an AF correctional officer and an investigator).

mikimouse

on May 10, 2004

interesting but it won't explain away the fact that the US is torturing the Iraqi population (like I said amongst ridicule and insults).

Solitair

on May 10, 2004

It does give an interesting explanation though.

The US is NOT torturing Iraqis. A small minority of soldiers were torturing Iraqis, probably due to lack of leadership. The US needs to provide strong leadership for future soldiers to ensure this doesn't happen again.

Doesn't excuse anything, but helps explain why which is what so many people are currently asking.

Paul.

Solitair

on May 10, 2004

double post

Draginol

on May 10, 2004

"The US". Yea, the "US". 150,000 soldiers over there and standard procedure is to go around torturing the Iraqi population.

dharmagrl

on May 10, 2004

The US is NOT torturing Iraqis. A small minority of soldiers were torturing Iraqis, probably due to lack of leadership

Exactly. I wish people would quit tarring all US military personnel with the same brush.

Ditto Brad.

Corio

on May 10, 2004

Good read! I found the reference to Philip Zimbardo particularily interesting.

I think the most interesting (and terrifying) aspect of this is that it isn't about "good" or "bad" people. A lot of us could, in a given situation, be torturers. A common reaction in such instances as this is to alienate the actual perpetrators and sympathize with the victims, i.e the troops are defined as "bad" / the victims as "good". But people are influenced by the environment they live within. Mob-mentality will make humans do things they wouldn't otherwise do.

I don't think these troops were "just some bad apples". Seeing as military personell are following strict codes of conduct, it would seem wise not to limit investigations to those that were on the pictures. Whatever the outcome, this case needs to be opened up, not buried, as some people here apparently feels.

mikimouse

on May 10, 2004

"The US is NOT torturing Iraqis"
Gee. Are those torturers Canadian? Lmao. Now you try change the torturer's nationalities? Sorry, but the US is currently torturing the Iraqis they pretend to have freed from torture.

dharmagrl

on May 10, 2004

Sorry, but the US is currently torturing the Iraqis they pretend to have freed from torture.

Yeah, Miki, we're all doing it. The entire US of A , every man woman and child is heading to Iraq to torture people. Each and every member of the US military gets up in the morning and writes on their 'to-do-today' list "Torture some Iraqi's"

No-one tried to say that the responsible individuals aren't American. The point was that not EVERY American soldier is in the business of torturing people. A small, a VERY small minority did, and they got caught and will pay the consequences for their actions. Don't say 'they're all doing it' because 'they all' are not.

mikimouse

on May 10, 2004

no silly not everyone in the US. Just the ones in Iraq. Are you so silly as to think it's an isolated incident? with all the new evidence coming out? And Bush saying you all owe Rumsfeld a big thank you.....is he on fucking drugs or something? Holy fucking shit.

Solitair

on May 11, 2004

Mikimouse,
your use of the term US does not match most peoples use of this term. The term 'US' is generally taken to mean the country or it's government. We can definitely say that the entire citizens of the US (as a whole) do not torture Iraqis. We can definitely say that the official policy of the government of the US is not to torture Iraqis. So where do you get your

the US is torturing the Iraqi population

statement from?

There has been systematic torture (not isolated incidents), but this is very different from institutional torture. The US government has questions to answer about how it failed to stop torture or provide the individuals involved with the leadership that was obviously lacking. It does not have questions about policy to answer. Hence the US does not torture Iraqis, but is responsible for the actions of US individuals and the failure of the system to stop the torture. Responsibility for failing to stop torture is legally and ethically very different from torturing.

And Mikimouse, please reign in the language.

Paul.

Archimel

on May 12, 2004

You know, this is exactly why Mr. Rumsfeld called the torture "un-American" (there's another thread about his choice of wording). It's not all Americans doing it, but some people want to speak, think, and act as if it were all Americans.

It wasn't every US citizen.

It wasn't every US soldier.

It wasn't every US soldier in Iraq.

It wasn't the majority of US soldiers in Iraq.

It wasn't a significant portion of the soldiers in Iraq.

It was a small minority of US personnel in Iraq. A very small minority.

The night I first heard about and saw the pictures showing the terrible treatment of Iraqi prisoners, I was absolutely pissed. Not because "we" got caught in the act, but because it shouldn't have happened at all. I found my self thinking how these soldiers were guilty of atrocities very similar to those we went to Iraq to prevent. I believed - and still believe - that our military is in Iraq to make that country a better place for its citizens. What I was seeing on TV went against everything I believe our presence in Iraq represents. I was so angry to see soldiers that have no idea why they are there, what they represent, nor what standard they need to hold themselves to. What they did was un-American, not even close to accepted by the vast majority of Americans, and not even close to accepted by the vast majority of American military personnel.

Remember, it was an American soldier who blew the whistle and lead the military to open an investigation back in December. The majority of Americans in Iraq are like that whistle-blower, not like the torturers.

I live less than a mile from an Air Force base, so there are a lot of military families in my neighborhood. Some of my friends and neighbors are in Iraq right now. I know that none of them are mistreating Iraqis. First of all, most US soldiers aren't in a situation where they could mistreat Iraqis even if they wanted to. And they don't want to. That's obvious from what I hear from their families. All of them 1) are anxious to come home, 2) want Iraq to be a better place for the sake of the Iraqi people, and 3) wish they could do more to help. Many feel somewhat helpless, like nothing they can do will help Iraq be a peaceful country where Iraqi children don't have to live in fear, where the violent few don't threaten the safety of the peaceful majority. Without exception they want Iraqis to be happy.

Please don't confuse the actions of the majority with the actions of the few. Don't confuse the behavior of the guilty with the standards held by the innocent. And don't confuse your version of the US military's motives (even if you are right) with the motives of the individual soldiers who have sacrificed time, money, family, and perhaps even their lives to help make the world a better place for all, including the Iraqi people. You may not believe that's why they are there, but they believe that's why they are there.

Jepel

on May 12, 2004

Good aand well balanced article.

i cannot help thinking,

you are torturing or abusing prisonner, if you are serious about that, you know it is not recommended to keep proof of that, so why the picture?
Are you going it because you are feeling that your supervisor don't really pay attention or because you are a sadist?

I don't know, but I suspect that the truth is between.

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